Comments on: Conversion: Hold Person

By: Chris Kümmel

Chris Kümmel — Sun, 18 Jan 2009 09:49:56 +0000

Regarding unconscious and helpless, they are not the same. If you are unconscious, you wake up if hit. This is how Knocked Out works, so my rogue can knock one out, action point and then coup de grace him (for 114 damage!). If someone was helpless he would be able to Coup de Grace ever single attack. That would bring a whole different kind of hurt. This encounter power is way too good. If you wanted to mimic hold person and avoid the whole CdG situation, why not simply add a new keyword called *held* to the mix. *Held* makes you unable to take any actions and grant combat advantage to your enemies. It should probably still be a daily

By: Scott

Scott — Sun, 18 Jan 2009 09:42:13 +0000

I think I’d simulate paralysis with “restrained, and cannot take attack actions.” The only possible nitpick there is that restrained prevents forced movement, but that doesn’t seem terribly outlandish for a magic spell — it’s not locking their muscles so much as physically holding them in place via some unseen force.

By: fred

fred — Fri, 16 Jan 2009 23:54:14 +0000

Do all of those get around the “victim cannot move” prohibition of “immobilized”? You can’t move under your own power (other than teleport, maybe) IIRC while immobilized.

Regardless, it’s too ass-in-the-breeze for my table, like I said.

By: justin

justin — Fri, 16 Jan 2009 20:24:48 +0000

But Unconscious and Helpless+ are not synonymous. The victim of Hold Person above can use any number of powers to avoid further harm until the effect wears off: Astral Refuge, Angelic Intercission, Ethereal Stride, Fey Switch, Warlock’s Leap, Infuriating Elusiveness, Dimension Door, etc. That’s just on a quick skim and just looking at powers that let the victim get out of the way.

By: fred

fred — Fri, 16 Jan 2009 20:10:34 +0000

I don’t think it’s worse than Hold Person, above. Unconscious and Helpless are practically synonyms when you pair it with the other prohibitions on the victim. I’m just sayin’ I’d disallow this as written at my table.

By: justin

justin — Fri, 16 Jan 2009 18:23:02 +0000

I can see the argument for daily, but I think I still like it as is. Compare to the rogue’s Knockout power (lvl 9 daily, PHB 121). Yes, that is a daily, but it is (a) level 9, (b) deals damage too, (c) has a miss effect, and — importantly — (d) knocks the target unconscious, which is much worse than Hold Person above. Note that the held person can still use some powers, which might give him a chance to get out of the situation. Also, at level 13, the coup de grace becomes less of a threat than at lower levels.

Thanks for the feedback.

By: Francis B

Francis B — Fri, 16 Jan 2009 16:22:08 +0000

Either make it a daily, or layer the effects, first they are immobilized, after the first failed save they cannot use powers with the weapon or implement keyword, 2nd failed save they are helpless.

That way you don’t just cast it and the next turn have an ally walk up and coup de grace. It takes a few turns so the enemy can sort of fight it. In 4e they’ve gotten far away from those 1 hit fight ending powers.

By: fred

fred — Fri, 16 Jan 2009 15:07:09 +0000

Reads like a daily power to me, honestly. Helpless? Seriously? That allows for coup de grace — automatic critical hits. I’d replace “helpless” with “grants combat advantage”.